Sain eilen pienen lappusen, johon oli kirjoitettu sellaisia raamatun tekstejä, joilla eräät henkilöt perustelevat kolminaisuusoppia. Käytyäni tekstit läpi, olin suorastaan huvittunut siitä, miten eri tavoin me ihmiset voimme nähdä saman tekstin. Minä nimittäin voisin ottaa juuri nuo samat tekstit todisteeksi kolminaisuutta vastaan. Katsotaanpa siis noita tekstejä lähemmin... yksi kerrallaan!
Yesterday I got a little note of such Bible texts, which some people use to stand for the Trinity. When I red those texts I felt very amused, for I realized who differently we are thinking of the same texts. You see I could use those same text against the Trinity. Let's see them now closer... one at a time!
Matt. 3: 15 -17:ssa kerrotaan Jeesuksen Johannekselta saamasta kasteesta Jordanilla. Kerrotaan, että Jeesuksen noustessa vedestä taivaasta laskeutui Jumalan Henki kyyhkysen muodossa, ja taivaasta kuului samalla Isän ääni. "Ihan selvästihän siinä on kolme tekijää", sanoisi joku kolminaisuuden kannattaja.
In Matthew 3: 15 - 17 there is a story of the baptism of Jesus on Jordan. We can read that when Jesus went up the Spirit of God descended like a dove upon him and a voice from heaven was speaking. "Most apparently there are three actors" could someone say pro the Trinity.
Ongelman ydin kolminaisuusopissa on kuitenkin siinä, että Jumala itse on ilmoittanut olevansa YKSI (5. Moos. 6: 4). Siksi minä otan Jumalan oman ilmoituksen niin vakavasti, että asetan sen tutkistelujeni lähtökohdaksi ja yritän ymmärtää tätäkin tekstiä niin, etten joudu ristiriitaan tuon Jumalan oman ilmoituksen kanssa.
The heart of the problem concerning the Trinity is that God himself has informed that he is ONE (Deut. 6: 4). Therefore I want to take God's words seriously and set them as the basis on my studies and I'll try to understand even this text without contradiction with God's own words.
Kun lisäksi on käynyt selväksi, että raamatun tekstejä on aikojen kuluessa manipuloitu tietyn opin ja tulkinnan vahvistamiseksi, tekstien kanssa on oltava hyvin varovainen ja vältettävä liian helppoja johtopäätöksiä.
Moreover we know very clearly that the Bible texts have been manipulated during the centuries in order to strengthen some particular doctrine and reading, therefore we must be very careful and avoid too easy conclusions.
Kasteessa synnitön Jeesus sitoutui juridisesti syntiseen ihmiseen. Siis puhdas, viaton, synnitön ja tahraton Jeesus otti syntisen ihmisen paikan voidakseen siten tarjota voittonsa ansioita syntiinlangenneelle ihmiskunnalle.
In Baptism Jesus engaged legally with sinners. Thus a pure, innocent, sinless and righteous Jesus stepped into wicked people's role in order to be able to offer the profits of his victory to the fallen mankind.
Johannes Kastaja ei voinut olla huomaamatta Jeesuksen taivaallista pyhyyttä ja puhtautta. Hän tunsi itsensä arvottomaksi palvelemaan Jeesusta, ja siksi hän pyysi saada itse kasteen "Jumalan Karitsalta" (Matt. 3: 14; Joh. 1: 29). Karitsa ja kyyhkynen olivat uhrieläimiä, joiden tuli olla virheettömiä (2. Moos. 12: 5; 3. Moos. 1: 10) kuvatakseen Jumalan täydellistä pelastustekoa Jeesuksessa.
John did notice the heavenly holiness and purity of Jesus. He felt himself totally unworthy to serve Jesus, and therefore he asked Jesus, the Lamb of God, to batize him (Matthew 3: 14; John 1: 29). A lamb and a dove were sacrificial animals and they should be totally perfect (Ex. 12: 5; Lev. 1: 10) to symbolize God's entire salvation in Jesus.
Jeesuksen viattomuuden rinnalla fariseusten ja saddukeusten edun tavoittelu ja kieroilu vaikutti Johanneksesta niin saastaiselta, että hän lausui ajatuksensa julki sanomalla kansan johtajille: "Te kyykäärmeitten sikiöt, kuka on neuvonut teitä pakenemaan tulevaista vihaa (Matt. 3: 7)?"
Comparing the innocence of Jesus to the filthiness of the leaders (who were always seeking for benefits) John uttered his thinking to them saying: "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come (Matthew 3: 7)?"
Johannes Kastaja näki siis Jeesuksen puhtauden symbolina KYYHKYSEN ja juonittelevat kansan johtajat saastaisina KYYKÄÄRMEINÄ. Pelastussuunnitelman mukaan Jumalan oli alennuttava saastaisimman ihmisen tasolle. Kyyhkysen oli laskeuduttava siis kyykäärmeitten tasolle, jotta kyykäärmeistä (syntisistä ihmisistä) voisi tulla kyyhkysiä (vanhurskautettuja).
John saw a DOVE as a symbol of the purity of Jesus and VIPERS as a symbol of the leaders. But because of the salvation God had to descend himself to the level of the worst man. The dove had to descend to the level of the vipers so that the vipers (the sinners) could turn to doves (righteous).
Jordanilla tapahtuneen kasteen yhteydessä toteutui Mooseksen kautta annettu ennustus käärmeestä, joka ripustettiin seipään päähän tuomaan terveyttä ja parantumista kansan sairauteen (4. Moos. 21: 9). Jumalan alentuminen syntisen ihmisen tasolle (käärmeeksi) tapahtui Jordanilla, ja hänen kohottamisensa paaluun tapahtui vähän myöhemmin Golgatalla.
A prophecy given through Moses was fulfilled in the baptism of Jesus; for at Jordan he turned to be the viper, which was hung on a pole in order to give health and healing for the sick people (Num. 21: 9). God descended himself to the level of man (came to be a viper) on Jordan, and a little pit later he was lifted up to a pole on Golgatha.
Katsellessaan tuota näytelmää Johannes Kastaja ymmärsi Jeesuksen tehtävän, ja suostui siksi palvelemaan Jeesusta kastamalla hänet Jordanin vedessä. Näin Jumalan vanhurskaus voitiin tuoda synnin keskelle. Kun Johannes ymmärsi, että synnittömän Jeesuksen kaste kuului osana Jumalan pelastussuunnitelmaa, hän ikään kuin kuuli Jumalan ÄÄNEN sisimmässään.
When looking at Jesus John realized the task of Jesus and therefore he consented to baptize him on Jordan. God's righteousness was brought among the people in this way. When John understood that baptism of Jesus belongs to God's eternal salvation, he was as though listening to God's VOICE in his heart.
Minä näen Jordanilla maailmankaikkeuden Luojan, suuren HENKI-Jumalan, LASKEUTUVAN syntisen ihmisen osaan Jeesus-ruumiissa (Hepr. 10: 5) omien lupaustensa (= JUMALAN ÄÄNI) mukaisesti (Jes. 53: 2 - 7) ja ottavan kannettavakseen ihmiskunnan syntivelan. Tässä kaikessa toiminnassa näen vain YHDEN ainoan jumalallisen PERSOONAN.
On Jordan I can see the Creator of the universe, the great SPIRIT-God, descending to the level of a sinner in the body of Jesus (Hebr. 10: 5) following his own promises (=GOD'S VOICE) and fulfilling them (Isa. 53: 2 - 7) and taking the sins of the mankind on his shoulders. In all of this I can see only ONE divine PERSON.
Jumala sanoi olevansa YKSI, ja minun ei ole mahdotonta ymmärtää ja uskoa sitä!
God said he is ONE, and it's not impossible for me to understand and believe it!
hey, first would like to comment on this passage you wrote:
VastaaPoistaMoreover we know very clearly that the Bible texts have been manipulated during the centuries in order to strengthen some particular doctrine and reading, therefore we must be very careful and avoid too easy conclusions.
any evidence for this? you know if we really believe that God can't take care of his word to be true but that it has been manipulated by people to strengthen their own doctrine, then why are we reading the book at all. why are we even discussing. You mentioned the text in Deut. where God says he is one. so based on your argument i could say that text is also manipulated. (which of course i don't say because i truly believe that the word of God as we have now is correct)
Regarding Trinity. i don't think its this clear and cut. You see some people argue that oh we have in the old testament a God of war and killing. But in the new testament we have a God of love and forgiving.
Is it true? No off course not. God is the same always and forever.
He doesn't change in character. His works might show different because of the people. Every generation needs a different approach.
Now i am not here to say this is how trinity is. I actually am honest enough to say i don't know, and it is not important.
There is one fact for me.
There is a God Father, a Jesus and a Holy Spirit. how the relationship of them works i don't know. and i don't need to know. all i need to know is that they are working together (maybe together is also a limiting word) for the benefit of Human Kind.
However it is also important to note that Jesus is talking about his Father all the time. And when Philip is asking him to show the father, Jesus replies by saying how can u say that, If you see him you see the father. Jesus and the father are ONE.
Do we really know what it means to be ONE? Little side note. Man and wife are to be ONE we are being told this in Genesis.
My point is that our words and brains and intellect is to limited to explain something as amazing and powerful as God.
we are also being told that the father lives in a light where no one can enter, not even the angels but only Jesus. What does this mean? i don't know and honestly it doesn't matter. the fact that Jesus is the mediator for me is enough i need to know.
Our church and many other christian churches have tried to explain this mystery of God by calling it Trinity. Is that correct? well i think its as correct as to say for Galileo Galilei that the earth is spinning around the sun. (which modern astronomy has found out that is not completely true because even the sun is moving and the whole universe is moving which means its also moving around the earth. and this is true until we find more out about the universe)
Our adventist church fathers had a really nice theological understanding it was called, Present Truth. Its the truth that is valid at this stage.
In my understanding the word Trinity is just a means to call the mystery between Father, jesus(Son) and Holy Spirit. The Bible talks about three people, persons or entities (any word i use here would be limiting because we don't know a better word) that are still ONE.
Its an interesting and very confusing point and the bible is as in so many other areas not telling us more about the details of that relationship.
Thank you for your blog its nice to discuss and think about it.
maybe we can one day talk more about it and in person if you want.
mike
Hello Mike!
VastaaPoistaLovely thanks for your comment!
There are so many things for me to answer. Now I try.
Firstly your asked about some evidence for manipulations of the Bible in order to strengthen the Trinity.
I have written some years ago about 1. John 5: 7, 8, which was one of the greatest things to "open" my eyes. The translatition which still exists in the King James version was once also in the Finnish versions. In 1938 it has been changed in the modern form, which follows the manuscript of the text. This manipulated text which effected on our thinking during 400 years (from Agricola to 1938) made me to think that there has been a great need to strengthen people to believe on three divine persons.
Of course I admit that we can speak in our human language about the Father (who is the Beginning of everything), the Son (God's amazing way to save the fallen mankind) and the Holy/Good Spirit (for God is a holy and good SPIRIT and he guides us through his spirit). But I think they are ONE PERSON just in the same way as I am one person although I have a soul, spirit and body. I think that the doctrine of three persons of the Trinity is just the same paganism as we can see for example in Egypt (Isis-Osisris-Horus).
When I'm thinking that God is one person I need not to compare the deity to the human couple, which is one through their sexuality. I don't see any sexuality in the heavenly goodhood. But all the pagan idols/gods are very sexy.
I agree with you that God is over human understanding and that's why I'm protesting the image of God people have made and built... and what's the worst thing they have made it against God's own information. One person is not the same thing as three persons... never! Instead of the word "Trinity" I'd like to use the word "Unity".
It was a terrible disappointment for me at first to find text manipulations in the Bible (I have written also about that), but I'm very thankful for my dear Saviour who has took care of my faith and strenghten me to believe that the truth is still to be found. We are living in a fallen world and everything is somehow broken and spoiled here, but some signs of the Master/the Creator/the Saviour/the Absolutely Good still exist... enough indeed!
I can understand that many people say... it's just in vain to think about the deity. During my life I have tried many times to loose the whole subject... but in vain. It has risen again and again before me. I'm not sure why. But I suppose that the past experiences of my life may be one reason.
I think "the present truth" is a good expression, for "the path of the just is as shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day". God's wisdom is endless, his knowledge can't be hammered on stone and fixed in doctrines. Human people are seekers for ever even in the eternity. How could any fallen man define the deity and make a doctrine of that for others?! I think it's even against the second commandment!
Helinä